House of Commons Journal Volume 1: 19 April 1604

Jovis, 19 Aprilis, 1604

Continuing Statutes.

Mr. Serjeant Snig moveth some Course to be entered into for the Continuance of Statutes, and offereth a Project in Writing for that Purpose.

The House thought fit, that the Bill for Continuance &c. should not be brought in by any but the Committee for Continuance, which was to be named.

Sea-coast Towns, &c.

An Act for Re-edifying of Sea-coast Towns, &c. being ready for the third Reading, and the Question of Passage, thought fit not to pass now, but to be considered on by the Committee for Continuance, &c.

Continuing Statutes.

Question made, whether the same Committee that is for Repeal [a], shall stand also for Continuance and Reviving of Statutes; and, upon the Question, agreed.

Explanation and Addition to be also thought on by the same Committee; and the Committee to meet on Saturday next, in the Parliament House.

Purveyors, &c. Petition vers. Purveyors, &c. L. 1.

The Petition touching the Abuses of Purveyors, &c. according to Order, upon the Purveyors, Division of the House Yesterday, was now firstly read, and, by Direction of the House, delivered to the Committees, who were appointed to meet this Afternoon, and to consider further of it: And, upon Motion, it was ordered, that the Clerk of the Crown shall attend the Committees, with all such Commissions of Purveyors, or others of that kind, as they shall think meet to require or use. - Vide 28 Apr. for the Petition.

Order in Debates.

Agreed (upon Occasion of a Speech Yesterday uttered by Mr. Hyde, which was not thought fit to be noted or remembered) for a Rule of the House; Qui digreditur a materia ad personam, Mr. Speaker ought to suppress.

Union with Scotland.

Mr. Fuller reneweth the Dispute touching the Union. - Scottish Men to be no Magistrates with us, nor English amongst the Scottish. -

In H. VIII. Time a Commission went into Wales, to examine the Laws and Customs there: -

The like into Scotland, before an Union. -

Take a Plant out of a barren Ground, and set it in good Ground, it will grow, and overgrow.

The Matter further argued this Day by Sir Francis Bacon, and Sir Edwyn Sandys, by way of Objection and Answer.

The Manner of Proceeding propounded first by Sir Edw. Hobby; followed by Sir Francis Bacon: Viz.

Sir Edw. Hobby: - To consider, Whether to confer: - What shall be the subject of the Conference.

First, to hear the Narration from the Lords, of the Cause of their Conference: - It concerns them nearest: They are to make the first Overture.

When the Overture is made, then to know the Lords Inclination.

If the Lords be resolved, then no Conference: For, being resolved, they are overweighty for us.

Sir Fr. B. - Our Preparation hath Three Parts:

1. The Matter. 2. The Limitation of the Commission. 3. The Disposing and Ordering of the Conference.

The Lords to begin: - They are the Sentinel, and understand State.

To treat of any thing, consent to nothing. -

Not unfit to debate the Thing itself, because we may be prepared.

Mr. Moore: - To confer with Caution for the Name :

- For the Matter. - Eight Objections collected; all answered ; some replied.

Objec. 1. Scotland should yield, and make a Cession of that old Name, and so not meet equally. - Normandy:

- The Conqueror did not impose the Name, but make a Cession.

Answ. That by Conquest, This by Lineage. - Fatis cede: Follow the Point of God's Providence : Take the Name, that hath been the Name of all; it is a Remitter to the ancient Name.

Reply. Nomen signum rei: - Names not to be rashly imposed, but by wise Men. - The Ground of every Name, the Nature of the Thing.

Object. 2. Shall we christen a Child, before it be born ?

Answ. The Child is born, it wants but cradling and swadling : - In Sovereignty and Allegiance it is born.

Reply. We may give a Name before the Child be born, but not a Name of a Male or Female.

Ob. 3. That we should lose the ancient Name of England, so famous and victorious.

Answ. The Britaines held tack with the Romans in their Greatness.

Ob. 4. Either the Union will succeed, or not succeed; if not, then the Name is a Shadow.

Answ. Rome was not built on a Day. - Light Things go before, the weightiest come after. A Name is volatile, an airy Thing.

Reply. Light Things go before, but the Shadow cometh after the Body.

Ob. 5. we know not what they do in Scotland: - Shall we invite?

Answ. The King invites us both.

Ob. 6. The Precedency of England in Danger.

Answ. Spaine united in Name, in no Danger for Precedency.

Ob. 7. The Name urgeth and inwrappeth the Matter; - We shall prejudge the Matter.

[a] Easily holp in the Penning of the Bill - The very Name helpeth to the Correcting of the Stomachs.

In the Scriptures God beginneth no new Thing, but with Alteration of the Name, by imposing or adding. -

[b] The King's Purpose to join the Hearts.

Reply. Forma dat nomen, et esse. - Nomen et esse go together. - It cannot be holpen by any Bill. - United in Obedience, but now to be united one to another.

We cannot make any Laws to bind Britannia. - The Matter in Nature doth precede the Manner. - If a fit Name, it must be Signum signati. - If we take away the Name, we take away the Maxims of the Law. - England hath always been famous in that Name.

Let us first see what Manner of Unity: - What it is like to be: - Whether the Alteration of the Name be necessary, or expedient: - What Alteration, and at what Time. -

Let us proceed with a leaden Foot. - As our Predecessors have left us free, so let us leave our Successors, without Prejudice. - Prejudice seduceth, Necessity excludes Counsel.

This House hath translated the Crown from One Line to another, which it could not do.

To have Things beaten in the House first, then to send a Message to the Lords for Conference.

Mr. Secretary Herbert: - Summa lex csto salus Principis: - Summa lex esto salus Reipublicae -

An Union in Name : An Union in Government: - Both honourable, profitable, possible.

To debate freely, without Limitation.

Tomorrow Morning Mr. Speaker to deliver what he conceives of the Speeches uttered this Day.

Ordnance.

During this Dispute, Mr. Attorney General, Mr. D. Stanhope, and Mr. D. Swale, bring from the Lords this Message :

Whereas the Lords had received a Bill from this House, touching the Transportation of Ordnance, accompanied with a twofold Request; One, for Furtherance of the Bill; another, that great Numbers of Iron Ordnance, now ready to be transported, might be stayed; that their Lordships will ever be ready to join with this House, not only in advancing publick Good, but in averting publick Inconveniences. Concerning the Motion, they have taken it by our Information ; they do not know the Particulars; and therefore desire, that, for the Stay of the Ordnance, we will do it by ourselves; the Lords will be present and give all Furtherance.

Religion. &c.

Touching Matters of Religion, their Lordships are willing to yield to a Conference; and have, to that End, appointed Thirty Lords to meet with some Number of this House on Saturday next, at Two a Clock in the Afternoon, in Camera picta.

Presently, upon this Message, a Question was agreed, and made. Whether a Conference ? and Resolved, upon Question, to confer: The Number to be Sixty.

Moved, That some Committees might be named, for digesting in Heads the Matters of the intended Conference : Which was assented; and there were named, Sir Geo. Carewe, Vice-chamberlain to the Queen, Sir Daniel Dun, Sir Thomas Beamount, Sir Hugh Beeston, Sir John Thynne, Sir John Mallorie, Sir Edward Radcliffe, Mr. Attorney of the Wards, Sir Edwyn Sandys, the Lord Clynton, Sir Vincent Skynner, Sir Richard Molineux, Sir John Hungerford, Mr. Hext, Sir Henry Bromley, Sir Robert Knollys, Sir Thomas Lake, Sir Thomas Walsingham, Sir Geo. Villiers, Sir Thomas Smyth, Mr. Serjeant Snig, Sir John Morrice, Sir John Bennett, Sir Rich. Haughton, Sir Geo. Fleetwood, Sir Francis Knollys, Sir Geo. Moore, Sir Maurice Berkley, Sir Roger Aston, Sir Thomas Challoner, Sir Thomas Edmonds, Sir Nicholas Saunders, Sir Thomas Biggs, Sir Tho. Ridgeway, Sir Roland Litton, Mr. John Bowyer, Sir Robert Needham, Sir Francis Popham.

A former Committee was, upon the Motion of Sir Francis Hastings, selected; and appointed to consider of the Confirmation and Re-establishing of the Religion established within this Kingdom; and of the Settling, Increasing, Maintaining, and Continuing of a learned Ministry; with whatsoever else might incidently bring Furtherance thereunto.

And, upon a Message delivered by Mr. Speaker from his Majesty, touching Matter of Discipline of the Church, and Reformation of Religion, as also touching the Complaints made of Abuses of Commissaries Courts; such Particulars, as might come into Consideration by that Occasion, together with the Proceeding of a former Committee in the same Matters, were referred to the said Committee.

These last named, were this Day added to the former; and both appointed to join in Conference with the Lords, touching all the foresaid Matters desired by the King, and consented unto by both Houses, on Saturday next, at Two a Clock in the Afternoon, in the Painted Chamber; and are, this Afternoon, to meet in the Exchequer Chamber, there to consider of, set down, and digest, the Heads of their intended Conference, as before.

Dispute continued.

The Dispute was continued by Sir Wm. Paddy, Mr. Brook, Mr. Moore, and Mr. Martin.

Message from Lords.

In the mean time a Message sent by the Lord Buckhurst, and others, to the Lords; That they would not be thought to neglect the Time; that they are still in Debate ; and will send. Answer so soon as they can resolve.

House to sit.

The House appointed to sit in the Afternoon, upon Mr. Speaker's Motion, for the first Reading of sundry Bills preferred.

Butler's Estate.

L. 1. B. FOR the Confirmation and Assurance of the Manors, Lands, Tenements, and Hereditaments of Henry Butler Esquire, according to the Tenor and Effect of a certain Indenture of Covenants, made for and concerning the Marriage of William Butler, Son and Heir apparent of the said Henry.

Coopers, &c.

L. 1. B. How many Coopers, Brewers and Vinegar-men may keep.

Le Grys' Estate.

L. 1. B. To assure the Manors, Lands, and Tenements of Christofer LeGrys, according to the true Meaning of the last Will and Testament of the said Christofer.

Small Debts.

L. 1. B. For Recovery of small Debts, and Relief of poor Debtors in London.

Tythes.

L. 1. B. For the Explanation, and more due Execution, of the Decree made 37 H. VIII. for the Payment of Tythes in London.

London Merchants.

L. 1. Nova B. For a Court of Merchants in the City of London, as in Scotland and France.

Poor.

L. 1.B. For Continuance and Explanation of a Statute, made in the 43d Year of the Reign of the late Queen Elizabeth, intituled. An Act for the Relief of the Poor.

Port of London.

L. 1. B. To ratify the Keys and Wharfs in the Port of London, formerly made free and open, and Restraint of others, per Stat. Anno 1o Eliz. cap. 11. for Goods, Wares, and Merchandize, and Commission and Certificate thereupon.

Utlaries.

L. 1. B. To take away lurking and secret Utlaries.

Shoemakers.

L. 1. B. Against vagrant and wandering Shoemakers.

False Dice.

L. 1. B. To prevent the Making, Selling, and Uttering of False Dice and Dice of Advantage.

Assert Lands.

L. 1. B. For the Establishing of certain Lands, called Assert Lands, in the Owners and Possessors thereof.

Trade.

L. 1. B. For the Enlargement of Trade for his Majesty's Subjects into foreign Countries.

Guns and shooting.

L. 1. B. For the due Execution of former Statutes made against shooting in Guns, and for the Preservation of the Game of Pheasants and Partridges, and against the Destroying of Hares with Hare-pipes, and tracing Hares in the Snow [a].