House of Commons Journal Volume 1: 30 March 1604 (2nd scribe)

Veneris, 30o die Martii, 1604

Alehouses.

A BILL to explain the Intent and Purpose of another Act of Parliament, made in the fifth Year of King Ed. VI. concerning Alehouses, delivered in by Mr. Johnson : - The first Reading.

Privilege - Jurisdiction in Elections.

Sir Robert Wingfield moveth, touching the Matter of Difference between the King and the Lower House; being the first Day -

Be seduced by ill Counsel -

A Piece of Parchment put in, without the Privity of the Sheriff.

The King hath many Misinformers: And I pray God cut them off. -

The Case of Sir Francis Goodwyn and Sir John Fortescue become the Case of the whole Kingdom. -

The Parliament a Court of Record.

Be it never, so displeasing, let us join Hand in Hand to seek the Privilege of this House. -

Whom it shall please the King, and the Council, shall be chosen: The free Election of the Country taken away. -

With Fortitude, Understanding, and Sincerity, to maintain the Privileges. -

Neither in the Manner of our Proceeding, nor in the Manner of Sir Francis Goodwyn's Proceeding, is any Offence, in his Conscience. -

No Matter of Contempt, but merely a Maintenance of Privileges. -

Old Lawyers forget, and commonly they interpret the Law according to the Time. -

If Law be, as they interpret, in what woful Case we be! -

If our Printing be false, if our Books be false, then Woe be unto us !

Sir Geo. Moore first entereth into the Commendation of Sir Rob. Wingfield.

Matter of Difference between the King and this House. -

A Law made, that never outlawed Man should . . his Face here again. -

The Difference: Some unrespectful Carnage towards his Majesty.

The Proceeding of this House dutiful and careful towards the King. -

Not as though they were to reverse our Errors, but that we might be better informed. -

A Course to be taken for the Satisfaction of the King. -

The King's Project; that we should advise amongst ourselves; that we should confer with the Judges, not as Parliament Men, but as Counsellors.

That we should let the King see, that we take to heart this Matter. -

Our Affections much appearing, in the Passing, and present Expediting, of the Bill of Recognition, &c -

Now not the Case of Sir Jo. and Fr. to be considered, but the Case between the King and us, -

Consider the Consequence, if this Difference and this Pique be bruited in the Country abroad, or beyond the Seas.- -

Making an humble Petition, that we may Leave to make a Law, for the Banishing of all Outlaws hereafter from the Parliament; and desire that we may hereafter hold all Privileges.

Sir Fr. Bacon: - That we ought not to contest with the King. That it is fit to have a Conference. That, by this Course, we shall lose no Privilege, but gain. -

The Matters of the Conference, Two: 1. Satisfaction of the King: 2. Putting in Certainty our Privileges. -

All is not said, that might be said. - Not to dispute with one, that is Governor of Thirty Legions. - Confitendum est, ne frustra interrogasset. -

Plainly and freely to deal with the Lords, and to let them know all the Reasons. They were jealous of the Honour of a Privy Counsellor, we of the Freedom of Election. -

It is fit, that great Men maintain their Prerogative, &c. So is it, that we maintain our Privileges. -

This a Court of Record. If a Burgess be chosen for Two Places, a Warrant from the Speaker, to the Clerk of the Crown, for a new Writ: Which proves, that it is a Court of Record. - A Clerk; a Register; Things entered of Record, and preserved. -

As they did for the Honour of a Counsellor, so we for the Privileges.

That we may have a Law, to declare our Privileges: To declare, that we have a Court of Record, and a Rigister. -

We are half of a Body, but the Lords are the Parts nearest the Head. -

Nothing ascends to the, Head, but by the Breasts,&c. -

Whether we may examine Returns, &c. Whether Men utlawed may be of the House: Whether a Man pardoned, having taken no Scire facias, may be called.

Whether, after we have judged, any other can judge us. -

There must be a Judge of the Return, before we sit. That must be judged by Law. We judge it by Discretion. -

The King ought to judge according to, the positive Laws of the Realm. -

No Precedent, that any Man was put out of the House for the Utlawry. -

It infringeth not our Liberty; for we judge, after the Court is set: It is judged before, according to the positive Laws of the Land, by the King. -

We should have desired, we might inform the King, that he was misinformed. -

Very just, that we refused a Conference; because it was touching a private Member of our House; whereof we ought not to give Account. -

Leave this particular Case to the King. - That we may pray, that it may be explained, what our Privileges are; and that no utlawed Man - Whether this House hath Power to take Notice of Returns, before we sit here. -

Whether a Man pardoned, having taken no Scire facias, shall be called in Question. -

Whether the Writ were returned the 17th of February, or no, upon his Oath.

Mr. Yelverton: - We ought not to confer: We ought not to commit. -

Majesty conferred with Justice, yet Majesty left the Stopping of the Wound to us. -

The Matter not to be spoken.

Blemishes: 1. Levity: Cruelty: Cowardice.

Three Decrees of upright Judgment: Motion, Examination, Judgment. -

No Court can reform their own Judgment.

Every Day a Term. Every Act, that passeth this House, is an Act of Parliament. -

Shall Justice float up and down? shall he be a Member To day, and shall we tear him off To-morrow? - - If the Member sound, it is Violence. If the Hand tear the rest, it is Cruelty. No Part torn, but it may bleed to the Ruin of the Whole. -

Sir Fr. Goodwyn to continue as he is. Duty and Courage may stand together. Let not the House be inveigled by Suggestions. This may be called a Quo Warranto, to seize our Liberties.

Three main Objections. -

Exception by the King: - We could shew no Precedent in this Kind. -

The King could shew no such Writ before. Our Hands were never sought to be closed before, nor we prevented. It opens a Gap to thrust us all into the Petty Bag. A Chancellor may call a Parliament of what Persons he will, by this Course. Any Suggestions by any Person, may be Cause of sending a new Writ. -

My Lord Chief Justice, - by the Law, we had nothing to do to examine Returns. -

Judges cannot take Notice of Private Customs, or Privileges; but we have a Privilege, which stands with the Law. The Judges informed the King of the Law, but not of a Case of Privilege. -

Confesseth, the Judges answered according to Law. - 35 H. VI. all the Judges resolved, that no utlawed Man should be admitted : Controlled by Parliament.

It is the same Opinion now: Let us be constant, and resolve to control it by Parliament.

We have done no Offence to the King, no Offence to the State, therefore let us ....

Mr. Crewe: - Whether we ought to revoke presently that, which we have done. The King's Pleasure that we should deliver the Reasons of that we have done, to be just. If we clear our Contempt, we have discharged ourselves. The King's Bench cannot reverse their Judgment the same Term: Therefore not the Parliament.

Moveth a Message to the Lords, that we are ready so to do, as we do not undo this House.

Mr. Dyett: - Non coronabitur, qui non legitime certaverit.

Sir Francis Hastings: - Not to be termed a Difference between his Majesty, and the Commons. - Rogamus, Auguste; non pugnamus. -

Question, not of Matter of Privilege, but of Judgment.

- Attend them, not [a] as Lords of the Council, and not as Lords of the Parliament.

Mr. Hedley: - We do no ways contest or contend with his Majesty. The King no way bound in Honour. If Writs go forth unduly, they may be controlled, without Impeachment to the King's Honour. It is the Act of his inferior Officers.

The Question, whether the Chancery, or Parliament, ought to have Authority.

Sir Robert Wroth: - The Question, whether we ought to satisfy the King, in his Commandment.

Sir Edw. Hobby .- - The King's Message, that we should consider within ourselves, and resolve of ourselves. If we may resolve of ourselves, then no Need to confer with the Judges; if not, then to be resolved by the Judges.

Sir Fr. Barrington: - To confer with the Judges.

Mr. Wyseman -

Mr. Hyde: - If Questions grow, then to resort to the Judges. - He is more apt to receive from us Satisfaction, that we have done rectum recte, than to hear -

Our Reasons to be put into Article, and to be delivered in all Humbleness to the King.

Mr. Fuller: - He would not have any Spark of that Grace taken from us, that we have had already from his Majesty.

Sir H. Mountague: - The Judges have judged, and we have judged: What Need then of Conference?

Being put to Question, Whether the House be resolved, or no; the whole House was resolved.

2. Question, Whether they be resolved to deliver it to the Lords.

3. Question, Whether, they shall be sat down in the Writing, or not: - To be sat down in Writing.

Whether a Committee, for this Purpose.

The Reasons to be brought into this Court, and allowed,

A Committee, to set down, in Writing, the Reasons of the Resolution of this House: Sir Edw. Mountague, Mr. Rainscroft, Mr. Martin, Sir William Fleetwood, Sir Arthure Atye, Mr. Winch, Mr. Fr, Tate, Sir Tho. Challoner, Sir Roland Litton, Mr. Solicitor, Sir Henry Nevill, Sir Roger Wilbram, Sir Jo. Thynne, Mr. Attorney of the Court, Sir . . Hollice, Sir Jo. Scott, Mr. Hitcham, Sir Jo. Mallory, Sir Edw Stafford, Sir Herbert Crofts, Sir Fr. Vane, Sir Rich. Mullineux, Sir Edw. Herbert, Sir Jo. Hungerford, Mr. Nath. Bacon, all the Serjeants at Law: - To meet this Afternoon, at Two a Clock, in the Exchequer Chamber.

Committees deferred.

The Committees, for Sir Tho. Shyrley, and the Irish Captains, to be deferred till To-morrow, the same Places, and Times.

Privilege - Jurisdiction in Election.

The House being resolved, upon the Question, that the Reasons of their precedent Resolution, touching the Return, Admittance, and Retaining, of Sir Francis Goodwyn, as a Member of this House, should be set down in Writing; these Committees is specially appointed to perform that Service; and have Authority, from the House, for any Officer, Record, or other Thing, and to view, and search, whatsoever of that Kind may help their Knowlege. or Memory, in this particular Service: And having deliberately, by general Consent, set down all such Reasons, they are to bring them, in Writing, into the House; there to be read, and approved, as shall be thought fit. And they are to meet this Afternoon, at Two a Clock, in the Exchequer Chamber.