Debates in 1689: April 24th-30th

Wednesday, April 24.

Sir Robert Howard.] The Duke of Schomberg, one of the greatest Captains in the World, under his Majesty, the then Prince of Orange, has had his Estate and Pensions all seized in France, and he has waved all things in this World to serve you and his Religion. He has been sollicited by the Duke of Brandenbourg, and the Emperor, to be their General. He has quitted all, to serve this King and Kingdom; hither he comes, and the King is not in a condition to reward him, otherwise than with the honour of Knight of the Garter. The King's condition is not equal to his desires to reward him. There cannot be a greater misfortune than to lose so great a Captain. I hope the House will do something for his fortune, as the King has done for his honour.

Mr Hampden.] I think this Motion is of consequence, and no good Englishman can let it fall. The merits of this great Person in the World are well known by the respect of Princes to him. If there be occasion, his service may be of great use, being the greatest Captain in Europe. Therefore I wish you would propose something the King may do for him. You cannot give it to him, but you may present the King with it, and desire his Majesty to dispose of it to him.

Mr Garroway.] I have as high esteem for Marshal Schomberg, as any body—Though we have no present use of him, yet we may have. But how to raise Money upon the people, and have that immediately given to Marshal Schemberg, I know not that Precedent. When we raise Money for the Navy we may represent his merits to the King in that Bill, and make him such a present as may encourage him to be farther serviceable to the Nation.

Sir John Guise.] I doubt not but if you declare those who assist King James, Rebels and Traytors, that the King, out of their Estates, will give a reward to Marshal Schomberg for his service.

Sir Thomas Clarges.] I have as great a sense of this man's service to the Nation as any in the House, or any where else. I hope we shall not intend to present this man to the King to be considered by him, but what shall be thought of or advised to enable the King to gratify this honourable Person. No man is against it, but, as you have been told, there will be forfeitures of such as have violated the rights of the people, and are in actual Rebellion. When you take the Indemnity into consideration, you will do it. The King's brother, the Duke of York, had an Estate given him out of the confiscations of the miscreants who were attainted; and I hope the King will give him some reward out of the Estates of those who are in Rebellion against the Government.

Mr. Harbord.] The King told me, "That he had told Marshal Schomberg, that he being not in ability to gratify him, he would recommend him to the consideration of this House;" and I doubt not, on Monday, you will find out some way to do it. 'Tis not fit the Nation should bear the burden, when these men have been the occassion of your misfortunes. We shall not be welcome into the Country, if we raise no money upon these estates.

Sir Thomas Lee.] I would not trouble you now, were I not afraid of Precedents. You are told by Harbord, "that the King has had Marshal Schomberg under his consideration." I am surprized that the Motion was not earlier. I remember, when there were great commendations of General Monk here, for what he had done, then the methods were, the King gave them rewards and lands, and the Parliament confirmed him afterwards. I would have it from the hand it ought, and I hope the Crown will be maintained always in that plenty as to be able to do it. It will be best for the Marshal, and best for you.

Mr Garroway.] It has been moved that this acknowlegement may be given Marshal Schomberg out of the Estates of Offenders, &c. I move you, that the King may be addresssed to issue out his Proclamation, that they appear by a day, or else they shall stand outlawed; and their Estates seized as confiscate to the King.

Sir Christopher Musgrave.] When Gentlemen seem to be of opinion that no Question should be stated till Gentlemen have an inclination to state it, it ought not to be. I have a great honour for Marshal Schomberg, but you are out of the way, if you put a Question, that we shall take upon us to recompense him for his service; that is a Prerogative only of the King. We are only to enable the King to gratify such persons, and I move you for the Order of the Day.

Sir Henry Goodrick.] This House is possessed of the great merit of this Gentleman, as all the Protestants of Europe are; but to lay this Debate aside now, I am against it. They did give great gratuities to Generals in former times, when we had no King in Israel; but we cannot usurp that Prerogative: Therefore for the present I would have it on your Books to acknowlege this Gentleman's great service to the King, and to enable the King to settle a grateful acknowlegement on this great Man.

Mr Hampden, jun.] I hope you will not go off from this Motion without leaving something on your Books. Ireland is not to be reduced without a General; and this is the greatest General in Europe: He is used to conquer Kingdoms. Portugal by him was restored to the right owner (fn. 1). You will use him for Ireland. Pray put not this Debate off without having something upon your Books.

Sir Richard Temple.] I find, all resolve to return him thanks for the great services he has done the King and the Nation, and that you will recommend him to the King. Therefore pray put the Question.

Sir Thomas Clarges.] I fear, this may be of dangerous consequence, to put ourselves in competition with the King in giving rewards to persons. I remember but one Precedent, and that was in the brother of a King, the Duke of York. 'Tis dangerous to be on your Books.

Sir Thomas Littleton.] Now this has been a Debate, to let it fall may be of dangerous consequence. If we recommend him to the King, we may enable the King to gra tify him. If we let it fall now, it will be very scandalous upon us.

Sir Henry Capel.] 'Twill be of dangerous consequence for this House to gratify particular persons. Sir George Booth had a vote of 10,000l. given him. The times indeed were different. This person is so eminent, that you can have no ill consequence of it (fn. 2).

The Debate was adjourned to Monday.

The Lords sent several Letters to the Commons, intercepted by Duke Hamilton in Scotland, and some Letters to the Duke, &c.

The Lords sent a Message to desire a present Conference on the Bill of Oaths.

The Speaker.] The last being a free Conference, the Lords should send now for a free Conference. Possibly the Messengers are mistaken in their Message. I think, you are to send an Answer by Messengers of your own.

Sir Christopher Musgrave.] This may lead you into great inconveniences. I have not observed the like. The Lords come and demand a Conference; suppose the Lords offer you something in writing, and you consider of it; you demand a Conference of the Lords; and so you go still backwards, if after the Conference will follow a free Conference.

Resolved, That a Message be sent as follows: The Commons having received a Message from the Lords for a present Conference, upon the subject-matter of the Bill of Oaths, the Commons conceive, that to desire a Conference, after a free Conference on the same subject, is not agreeable to the Methods of Parliament.

[The Lords (upon this) sent to desire a free Conference, which was agreed to by the House.]

Sir George Treby reports, from the free Conference, That the Lords have agreed to the Amendment of the Clause with this Proviso, "That it be left to the King to allow such of the Clergy, not exceeding twelve, as shall refuse the Oaths, an Allowance, for subsistence, not exceeding one third part of the value of their present income, during his Majesty's pleasure." The Lords did it as an expedient, and you may please to receive it, and make it your own.

Sir Thomas Lee.] The Lords were told, "That this was unusual, and not in the usual methods of Parliament."

Sir Richard Temple.] There is no objection against it, but that it is not in Parchment. The Lords depart from what they had done, only with these Amendments.

Sir Thomas Lee.] Because the Lords will please you, they have sent it you both in Paper and Parchment. You send Amendments, and the Lords send Amendments to your Amendments: They withdraw their Amendments, and give you other Amendments; where will be the end of this? Either entirely agreed, or their Amendments insisted on. But the Amendments are of a foreign nature.

[The Proviso was thrice read, and agreed to by the House, to be made part of the Bill. And the Bill was sent up to the Lords.]

[April 25 (fn. 3), 26 and 27 Omitted.]

Monday, April 29.

Richard Janeway, the Printer, was brought to the Bar, for printing the Address brought in by the Committee (and not agreed to by the House) for a War with France; who, being interrogated, said, "That Mr Fraser licensed the Book. He had the Copy, and hopes he shall not be put upon it to declare of whom he had it; and that he had answered the Law when he carried it to the Licenser, and had entered it into the Book of the Company at Stationers-Hall."

Sir Christopher Musgrave.] I think, the Honour of the House is much concerned in this matter. He refuses to answer you, and I hope you will send him to Newgate. If Persons take upon them to publish an Address of the Committee, and not passed in the House, I hope they shall be severely punished; and I would have Fraser sent for.

Lord Falkland.] If you refused printing your Votes, the Honour of the House is as much concerned in this; and I hope he shall be severely punished.

Mr Montagu.] I think, the Honour of the House is not concerned in this; the Title-page relates to the Committee only, and the House was not possessed of it.

Sir Joseph Tredenham.] I think, the Honour of the House is concerned. 'Twas under the consideration of the Committee, and the House rejected it. Is not this appealing to the People? The House rejects what the Committee agreed. To have this imposed on you is extremely to the dishonour of the House.

Mr Boscawen.] I cannot but say that Janeway has broken the method of the House, but not willingly; for 'tis licensed and entered. If he had thought it a crime, he would not have done it; but there was no Order to the contrary. It being entered, 'tis no such secret; every man may see and have it. Have not Votes been printed in Gazettes, and you take no notice of it? This Paper is an invective against the French King, and that is the thing which touches some so near. If you go any farther in this, you will do yourselves no right.

Mr Garroway.] I look upon the printing this Paper to be of another consequence than I have heard said yet. Some time ago the names of Members were printed that voted; this Paper can be for nothing but discriminating Parties; it is a plain Appeal to the People, and arraigning your actions. If you let this man go free, men will be afraid what to do; pray leave him to a Justice, by his authority to be examined. In the mean time, commit him to the Serjeant.

Col. Birch.] I cannot tell whether Gentlemen are in earnest in this business, more than for France formerly. I know it, and it pleases me mightily—The man (as he thought it to be Law) went to the Licenser; when you have heard the Licenser, the one and the other, then you may proceed. In Queen Elizabeth's, King James's, and Charles I's time, Gentlemens speeches were printed; they were not printed all of a side. This is no novelty; it has been ancient.

Sir Henry Goodrick.] If you have done well, why should not the Paper be printed? If ill, you are put under a censure abroad; but as for this man's answer at the Bar, it is insolent, and I would have him punished. But why may not a man print a Paper, an invective against France? I know no reason. If the Paper had engaged you in an offensive War—but this is defensive only. The thing in itself is not useless, but very useful: This coming in a silent way, 'tis no prejudice to the honour of the House; but this passing in a legal form to the Press, I would enquire how this person came by it. This very Address, agreed by the Committee, could not come to this man's hand, but by some of the Committee. But I would not have that reflection upon any of them; the excess may have the ill consequence to punish your Committee for showing this Paper to a friend. I move you to appoint a day to have the Licenser at the Bar, to answer his venturing to license any Paper relating to you, without your Order, as a Trespass upon your authority. This fellow deserves rather your compassion than punishment. I never saw a more despicable figure of a man.

Sir Christopher Musgrave.] I am sorry the poverty of the man is pleaded, who gives you an insolent answer. I wonder this should be thought a useful Paper, that you have rejected. I would commit Janeway, the Publisher, to the Serjeant, and send for the Licenser.

Mr Foley.] I can see but one crime in this man, and that is, the printing the Paper. 'Tis moved, to commit him for not answering you, &c. —The Paper is in your Books, and that is a Record free to any access. It will be a great reflection on the House to punish this man. You have laid this Address aside, and therefore it is a crime to publish it. You can punish him for nothing else.

Mr Arnold.] This is an unfortunate man. He lay in prison in King James's time for printing Books against Popery, and now that he has printed against the French King, pray dismiss him.

Sir Thomas Clarges.] If this is not a breach of your Privilege, you cannot punish him for it; but for a man to say this is against France, and you punish him! But 'tis not fit that all our Reasons for the War should be put in Paper, and sent about the world, and put the King upon declaring particulars, and never to come to a Peace with France, unless all the Affairs of Christendom are settled according to that Paper. His answering you so unmannerly is an aggravation of his fault; had he told you who brought this Paper to him, it would induce some compassion; but seeing he has not, it is an aggravation of his fault, and I would commit him.

Ordered, That Janeway be committed to the Serjeant, &c. and that Mr Fraser, the Licenser, do attend this House to-morrow.

Mr Colt informed the House of a scandalous Pamphlet entitled, "Hoc est Parliamentum," (called in the Journal, "A short History of the Convention, or a new christened Parliament.")

Mr Hampden.] These Papers are still printing, and there are copies of them abroad.

Mr Garroway.] The Privy-Counsellors have officers and messengers that will discover these Printers.

Mr Boscawen.] These Papers disturb the peace of the Nation, and invite people to stir up in arms. We ought to be sensible how this reflects on the House, and yourself. Mr Speaker. I am sorry we should pass this over in so much silence. I would have it burnt by the hands of the Hangman. If you leave it, as some Gentlemen move, to be enquired, after such reflections, you will forget yourselves.

Sir Robert Howard.] Probably Janeway, for some reward, will find out the Printer.

Sir Joseph Tredenham.] I would have you go farther than causing it to be burnt, &c. I would have an Address to the King to reward the discoverer.

Ordered, That the above Paper be burnt by the hands of the common Hangman to-morrow, in Palace-Yard, &c.

Tuesday, April 30.

A Bill, from the Lords, making it Treason, from such a time, to hold correspondence with the late King James, to assist with Money, &c. to advise, plot, or contrive to withdraw any Officer or Soldier from the service, &c. was read the first time.

Mr Garroway.] I find, people have earnestly moved to have this Bill read, and now it is read, I hope we shall take time to consider it. I shall ever be tender in constructive Treason to corrupt blood. One thing I observe, that it makes Mutiny Treason; if it be from disorders, when Soldiers are drunk, you will make a great many Traytors for their drink. I would well consider it.

[The Bill was ordered to be read a second time. (fn. 4) ]

[May 1 (fn. 5), 2, 3, 4, and 6, Omitted.]