House of Commons Journal Volume 2: 06 December 1641

Die Lunæ, 6 Decembris, 1641.

PRAYERS.

Letter to Sheriffs.

A LETTER to be sent to the several Sheriffs of the several Counties respectively, was read: And Ordered, that several Copies be made of it, and signed by Mr. Speaker, and sent to the several Sheriffs.

Loan from the City.

The Ordinance for securing to the City of London Two Fifty thousand Pounds, &c. read.

Ordered, That Mr. Speaker do subscribe the same.

Deane Forest.

Ordered, That the Committee for the Forest of Deane be revived; and do meet To-morrow at Eight of Clock, in the Star-chamber.

Commrs of Subsidies.

Ordered, That Sir Gilbert Gerard, Sir Jo. Francklyn, and Mr. Law. Whittacre, do call before them the Commissioners for the Subsidies in the Com' of Midd'; and examine the Difference between the Commissioners, of those that would raise the Subsidies and keep them to the Height, and those that would let them fall, and certify the whole State of the Business.

Abuses in Elections.

Mr. Pym, Mr. Lisle, Mr. Cromwell, Sir Guy Palmes, Ld. Falkland, Mr. Strode, Sir Jo. Strangewayes, Sir * Armyn, * Hide;

This Committee is to present some such Course to this House, as may be fit to prevent all Abuses in the Elections of Members to serve in this House: And they are in particular to take into Consideration the Information that is given to this House, concerning the Election at Arundell in Sussex.

Calve Skins.

Ordered, That this Business concerning the Calves Skins, formerly staid by Order of this House, be referred to the Committee for the Customers: And they are to consider what is fit to be done in the Business; and to report their Opinions to the House: And are for this Service to meet To-morrow at Seven of Clock, in the Star-chamber.

Subsidies.

This House taking notice that much of the Monies, payable upon the Bills of Subsidies, are behind, and must be brought in upon Process; they do therefore order and require the Barons of the Exchequer, that all such Monies as are due by virtue of the Bills of Subsidies, and shall come in upon Process as aforesaid, shall be paid into the Chamber of London, and not into the Receipt; according to the Directions of the Acts of Parliament: And the Officers of the Receipt are to take Notice of this Order; and not to receive any Monies from any Bailiff or Sheriff, that shall come in upon any of the Bills of Subsidy as aforesaid.

Ordered, That the Treasurers of the Four Subsidies do make their Accounts: And that Sir Edmund Sawyer, and Mr. Philips, do take their Accounts, and certify who are behind, that such Monies as are behind may be paid into the Chamber of London.

Disarming Recusants.

1^a vice lecta est Billa, An Act for the present disarming of Romish Recusants.

Mr. Solicitor, * Maynard, * Glyn, * Widdrington,. Serjeant Wilde, Mr. Whistler, * Prideaux, are to withdraw presently, and consider of some Reasons (and to present them to this House) concerning the Proceedings against the Bishops, upon the whole Debate that hath been here this Day upon that Business.

Proceedings against Oneile, &c.

According to the Order made on Saturday last, for the Taking the Business concerning Mr. Oneile into Debate, the House entered into Consideration of that Business.

Resolved, upon the Question, That it is sufficiently proved, that Mr. Daniel Oneile did, upon a second Design, in or about the Months of June and July last, publish false Rumours in the Army to the chief Officers thereof, "that there were Dislikes between the King and the Parliament;" and thereupon did persuade divers of the principal Officers of the Army to take Part with the King against the Parliament; to awe the Parliament, and to interrupt the Proceedings thereof.

Resolved, upon the Question, That Mr. Daniel Oneile shall, for this Offence, be accused by this House of High Treason.

Resolved, upon the Question, That the Votes passed in this House against Mr. Piercy, Mr. Jermyn, Sir Jo. Sucklyn, and Mr. Oneil, be referred to the Committee that is now withdrawn; to consider in what Manner it is fit for this House to proceed upon those Votes against those Gentlemen: And Mr. Serjeant Wilde, and Mr. Peard, are added to this Committee.

And it is farther Ordered, That it shall be taken into Consideration on Wednesday Morning next, what Name to give to the Matter of Fact voted against Mr. Ashburneham, Mr. Pollard, &c. And are to me .. * *

Irish Affairs.

Resolved, upon the Question, That it be recommended to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland, that if any Gentlemen of Quality, fit for that Service, do make Propositions for the Raising of Horse or Dragoons in Ireland, that his Lordship do accept of the same; provided the Number, in the Total, exceed not Six hundred, whereof Three hundred to be Dragoons, and Three hundred Carabines, in regard they may be raised there at easier Rates, and readier, and more convenient for that Service, than here.

Resolved, upon the Question, That Two Thousand Pounds shall be forthwith imprested out of the Chamber of London, to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland, upon Account, or to such Officers as he shall appoint, and for whom he will undertake; for the Raising of One thousand Foot (whereof Four hundred to be Firelocks) for the Service of Ireland.

Ordered, That Mr. Pym shall go through with his Report, concerning the Affairs in Ireland, To-morrow at Ten of Clock.

Proceedings against the Bishops.

Mr. Glyn reports from the Committee appointed to consider of Reasons to be offered to the Lords, for admitting this House to their Proof against the Thirteen Bishops formerly impeached by this House, That the Committee conceive this Course is most fit to be held in the Managing of this Conference:

1. To make a Narration of the Proceedings since the first Impeachment, and of the Votes of both Houses concerning the Canons: First, That it is voted by both Houses, that the Canons, &c. made by the late Convocation, do contain in them Matter contrary to the King's Prerogative, to the fundamental Laws of the Land, against the Liberty of the Subject, the Property of their Estate, and tending to Sedition, and of dangerous Consequence.

That, these Canons being thus voted by both Houses of Parliament, and, to bring the principal of the Persons in the making of those Canons to Judgment, according to their Demerit, the House of Commons did, 4° Augusti last, by Word of Mouth, impeach, at the Bar of the Lords House, these Thirteen Bishops by Name; and, To repeat to the Lords that Impeachment, as it was then delivered, as it is entered in the Book; concluding, that they might be put to answer in the Presence of the Commons.

That, because some Objections might be made, that That Impeachment was too general, the House of Commons did, 13° Aug. of the same Month, impeach the said Bishops, at the Bar of the Lords House, by Word of Mouth; and, to read at the Conference that Impeachment, which did declare, that all and every the said Canons, &c. were and are contrary to the King's Prerogative, the fundamental Laws of the Land, &c. and were so contrived, made, and promulged by them, &c.; and that therefore they might be put to answer in the Presence of the Commons.

That in both these Charges the Commons did desire, that these Thirteen Bishops might be put to answer in the Presence of the Commons: That afterwards the Bishops had several Days given them to answer; and, at last, 10 Nov. last, was appointed peremptorily unto them to answer: That when 10° Novemb. came, these Bishops put in a Writing, which they call a Plea and Demurrer; which Writing the Lords send down to this House: Upon Notice of which Writing (which they term a Plea and Demurrer, wherein they neither confess nor deny the Fact) this House did desire the Lords to appoint a Day when they might come and make good their Charge against them.

That the Lords sent a Message to this House, that they have ordered To-morrow to hear the Council of the Bishops upon their Plea and Demurrer; and that such Members of this House, as this House shall think fit, may be there present.

Thus much for the Matter of Narration.

That, upon this, the Committee have drawn these Conclusions; That it appeareth, by the Message from the Lords, they were impeached 4° Augusti; and that divers Days were given them to answer; and 10° No. 1641, they made then no Answer, but put in a Plea and: Demurrer, as they call it; and therefore that their Demurrer ought not to be admitted, because their Defence ought to be made to the Impeachment of the House of Commons but in their Presence, and that the Commons ought to be thereunto called; and that in all Courts of Justice it is so, that the Party concerned ought to be called to all Answers, Pleas, and Demurrers; for otherwise Mistakes might arise, which, by being present, would be rectified, as in this Case; for if the Commons had been present when the Bishops made their Answer, there would not have been that Mistake; for that, upon Search, it appears in the Lords Book, that the Second Impeachment, whereby all Arguments of Incertainty were taken away, and supplied any Defects in the first, as in this Particular "all and every the said Canons, &c. were so expressed" in the Second Charge, and yet not so entered in the Lords Books of Journals; which would have been rectified, if the Commons had been present at their Answer: So, in regard of Conveniency, the Commons ought to have been admitted to be there present.

Next, That the Commons conceive, they ought to have been called in this Case; for, that they have desired it, in both their Charges, to be present at their Answer; and that it was their Right to have been called.

Next, That the Charge consisting of mere Matter of Fact, not done above a Year before, ought to be called to answer to the Matter of Fact, and not to tender a Thing called a Plea and Demurrer.

Next, To observe the long Delay to the Commons; for, that they having charged these Thirteen Bishops long since, for mere single Matter of Fact, and but brought so lately to answer, which introduces great Inconvenience in this Particular, and in the Consequence; and is not exampled by former Precedents.

That therefore, upon these Grounds, the Commons desire the Lords, they may be admitted to make good their Proof against these Thirteen Bishops; and that they may be brought to Judgment.

Mr. Hollis is appointed to go to the Lords; to desire their Lordships, that they would be pleased to sit awhile, in regard they shall have Occasion to come unto them.

Mr. Goodwyn is appointed to go to the Lords; to desire a free Conference, by a Committee of both Houses, concerning the Proceedings against the Thirteen Bishops.

Poll-money.

Ordered, That the Collectors of the Poll-money for Midd. and London shall pass their Accounts in the Exchequer, notwithstanding they have not yet received the Monies from the Moneyers of the Mint; in regard that the Business that concerns their Payment of the Pollmoney, is referred to a Committee.

Bailing a Prisoner.

Ordered, That Mr. * Brunsden, now in the Serjeant's Custody, by a former Order of this House, shall be bailed upon good Bail.

Conference.

Mr. Goodwyn brings Answer, that their Lordships will give Meeting, at a free Conference, by a Committee of the whole House, as is desired.

The Committee that was appointed to consider of the Proceedings against the Thirteen Bishops; are appointed Managers of a free Conference.