House of Commons Journal Volume 1: 12 February 1621

Lunae, 12o Februarii

Precedent Books.

ORDERED, upon Mr. Alford's, Motion, The Precedent Books of this House to be brought hither, and be here kept.

Bills of last Session.

And the Bills of the last Session to be brought in To-morrow Morning; and the Titles of them to be then read.

Ordnance.

Mr. Bateman moveth, for the Bill of Ordnance to be brought in.

Sir Wm. Strowde, accordant.

Sir Edw. Coke, accordant. - Heu, patiar telis vulnera passa meis.

Sir Walter Earle: - That Mr. Hackwill hath it.

Privilege - threatening a Member.

Mr. Lovell: - That One Dayrell hath threatened his Person ; and that he shall be committed, either during the Parliament, or after the End of it.

Henry Dayrell to be sent for by the Serjeant, to answer this in the House.

Dr. Usher to preach at Communion.

Mr. Secretary: - That he hath moved his Majesty, for his Leave for Mr. Dr. Usher to preach at the Communion ; and that hath graciously granted it; and sent for the Dean, and gave him Direction accordingly.

Privilege - threatening a Member.

John Kennett produced a Witness against Dayrell: - That, in the Court of Wards, on Thursday last, said, he would have him committed for it, either during the Parliament, or after the End of it.

Privilege - Freedom of Speech.

Sir Edw. Coke maketh Report from the Committee for free Speech, &c. That the Sub-committee drew a Petition; which punctually read, and disliked; and therefore resolved to be referred back to the House; and so standeth.

Mr. Alford: - That this referred to the House, upon, the Motion of a Member of this House, who now absent.

Mr. Cooke: - To distinguish, what Kind of Freedom of Speech intended. - That we have, from the King's own Mouth, Freedom to propound in Parliament, what good for the Church, King, and Commonwealth; and what just Grievances of the Commonwealth. -

Moveth, he that moveth any thing, may do it by Bill, or a Model of his Proposition; which may be examined. -

Liberty of Disorder; Error through Rashness, &c. without Malice ; this to be censured by the House. -

But a further Degree of malicious and exorbitant Speeches, which may tend to Inconvenience in Government: Yet this also to be censured by the House; but this not to be done exclusively. We not competent Judges of that, because carried by Plurality of Voices; and these Statesmen, which know the States abroad, the fittest Physicians. Matters of Treason and Felony not debateable here. -

Adviseth, that the Time already well spent, though leave it now: 1. Because the Question of the Freedom of this House, is the Freedom of the Kingdom; but now, if we have satisfied ourselves, let it rest. -

Freedom of Proposition, both of Grievances of Church and Commonwealth; wherein could give Encouragement.

Mr. Drury: - Not to go to the Lords.

Mr. Secretary commendeth Mr. Cooke's, Speech. -

Much Time spent about Freedom of Speech : - Was granted at first. -

That the King willing to give as much Freedom, as we can reasonably desire; and apply ourselves to the Grievances, and other great Matters of the Commonwealth.

Sir Edw. Coke: - Shall never fear to speak here. Is persuaded, if we go recta linea, we shall have an happy Parliament, both for us at home and abroad, if ive go on sweetly. - Not to go to the Lords, because the Liberties of this House concerneth not them. We distinct Bodies, for distinct Privileges. If go to the King (which, feareth,will do hurt) and tell him what past, and that some were the last Parliament committed ; then look to Precedents past. We peradventure know not the Cause of their Commitment. - Not to repeat it; for may incense the King, and will force the King to search Precedents. Not to go upon Diffidence of Breach of Privilege. To let it sleep, and then the Time well passed in it hitherto.

Mr. Nevyll moveth a Re-commitment.

Sir Edw. Gyles: - Not to have the Motion for Freedom of Speech die; yet for no extravagant Speech. - To go without the Lords. - Not to repeat any thing past.

Sir Francis Darcy: - To petition his Majesty by Speech.

Mr. Cary . - That the Precedent 4o H. VIII. will end it.

Mr. Alford: - By no Means to have it to die.

Sir H. Poole: - That a special Privilege, Freedom of Speech. That some convented, for speaking in the Business of Impositions; and that some of the Records concerning the same, were, by the Lords Direction, brent. - To have the Petition in Writing; that the Subjects Claim may remain to Posterity.

Mr. Brooke excuseth his Absence : - Heard nothing of it before. - This Matter of great Importance. Precedents on Princes Part, great Matters of Consequence. Their Imprisonment of Record, which will remain to Posterity. Parliament Way is Parliament Petitions, in Writing; that so his Majesty's Answer may remain.

Mr. Chidley, - for Mr. Cooke's Motion; and to let it die. - 1. Divers Ways propounded by Message. An Answer verbal will do no good, especially not equal: to an Act of Parliament already. An Answer to the [Petition] will restrain more than now. - The Act of 6 H. VIII. better than * *

Sir Geor. Moore: - The Order of the House to be obeyed, for going to the King: De modo quaeritur. - Not to run back to what passed at the End of last Parliament - A Petition in Writing, submissly, and to express the Care of our Privileges.

Sir Ro. Phillippes: - That ordered, we should go to the King; but not, whether to go to the Lords, other than at a Committee. -

Fit to go to the Lords. Though they no particular Interest in our Privilege, yet they Parliament Privilege. -

For their refusing us in Matter of Imposition, that a Point of Prerogative. -

Sir A. Kingstone's Case: - The House forbore to sit, till he was enlarged.

Master of the Rolls: - This Matter committed to the whole House: They appointed a special and selected Committee: That, which they had drawn, in every Point generally disliked. -

To consider of the Acts of Parliament passed : If they sufficient, in vain to proceed further; if not sufficient, to draw a Bill to help these Defects; and a special Committee to do it.

Sir War. Heale, accordant.

Sir Wm. Bulwere, accordant.

Mr. Alford,: - Ihat Strowde's Act extendeth not to the Breach of our Privileges: That particular for One Man.

Sir Edw. Sands: - Never spake here with less Assurance. Much perplexed in his Thoughts with the Speeches past -

In this Business we sail between Scilla and Charibdis.

- Loth to lose Privilege of Parliament, or to offend a wise and judicious King. -

If no Resolution for this Matter, before his coming, he would never have moved it -

He a Sub-committee : Saw a Petition: Commended the Manner; the Substance liketh not. - Not to petition the King in that Form : Cannot be well taken of the King. -

Queen Eliz. a Brain and Courage of a Man: A Mother to her People, a Terror to her Enemies. -

Adviseth to proceed by way of Bill; wherein to set down here a Way, how to punish here all those Speeches, which fit to be punished. -

A good King oft wronged, and good Subjects. A good King never doth wrong. - Moveth. a Clause in the Bill against Misinformation of his Majesty, of any Man's Speech, either in Parliament, or after.

Sir Wm. Strowde: - If now by Bill, how can we speak then freely this Parliament ? - To petition first; and put in a Bill, and follow that after.

Mr. Glanvylle: - Knoweth not how can petition the King, without Distaste. - Against going to the Lords, because they nothing to do with * Privileges. Is for a Bill declaratory. Strode's Case a good Precedent for us; yet, in many Parts, too short; which may be helped. - That this Course, by Bill, will not offend the King: Will come to the Lords, and pass them.

Sir Wm. Cope: - That a Bill will make us worse, than we are. - Is for a Petition first, and a Bill after. - Not to look back to what past. - Moveth a Re-commitment.

Mr. Mallory: - To put it to Question, whether a Bill, or not.

Sir Geor. Chaworth, - for a Petition, as well as an Act.

- That Mr. Speaker made not the Petition for Liberty of Speech, as usual; and the Answer with more Caution than usual; almost a Nosce teipsum.

Mr. Dr. Gooch: - The Ground of the Petition to be no past Matter; but, that we may enjoy those Privileges, we have ever had. This House to punish, where Power; else to deliver them over to the King. - A Petition, and Bill.

- Mr. Alford: - A Bill, and a Message to the King, for the passing it.

Mr. Crew: - To remove ourselves from this Rock. - De modo, now the only Question. - A Bill, and a Signification from this House, for Freedom of Speech, and the Punishment here only.

Master of the Wards: - The Question, what free Speech is. If that be, to speak home to any Grievance, they may assure themselves of it.

Sir Tho. Hobby: - Committees for both Bill, and Petition.

Mr. Finch : - Would have this the hopeful and confident Parliament. - For the Manner of the Signification, would have it by a Message by the honourable Counsellors.

Upon Question, Ordered, To go to the King, by Petition for Freedom of Speech..

Committed to Sir Ed. Cooke, ... Chr. Brooke, Sir Edw. Sands, Mr. Alford, Mr. Crew, Sir Ro. Phillippes, Sir Edw. Sackvylle, Sir James Parrett, Sir Edw. Gyles, Lord Cavendish, Sir Wm. Cope, Mr. Nevill, Mr. Noye, Mr. Heneage Finch, Mr. Hackwill, Sir Rich. Tichborne, Sir H. Poole, Sir Tho. Hobby, Sir Peter Fretchwell, Sir Edw. Mountague, Mr. Solicitor, Mr. Cooke, Mr. Glanvyle, Mr. Herberte, Sir George Moore, Sir Tho. Row, Sir H. Withrington, Sir Humfrey May, Sir Sam. Sands, Master of the Wards, Sir Tho. Lowe, Sir Francis Barrington, Sir Tho. Howard: - On Wednesday in the Afternoon, in the Court of Wards. -

To consider, 1. Of the Manner, how to go to the King; viz. Whether in Writing, or by Message, by Word: If by Writing; then to set down the Form of the Writing: If by Word; yet to set down the Substance of the Message by Word.

The same Committee to draw a Bill for the future.

Privilege- threatening a Member.

Dayrell brought to the Bar, and kneeling, confessed, he heard Mr. Lovell had made a Motion against him in the House: Confesseth, he spake, the same Day it was moved, with Kennett; but denieth, he spake any such Words to Kennett, as he affirmeth. - That hath been said, Kennett hath been in Gaol.

Kennett called for, but was gone.

He to attend here again To-morrow Morning, at Eight of the Clock.

Mr. Lovell to bring in Kennett.

Leicestershire Election.

Sir Alexander Cave brought in again; charged with the not returning of the Indenture, sealed by the Freeholders, of Sir Geor. Hastings; and that he had returned that which was sealed by himself:

Confesseth, he hath the Indenture, whereby Sir Geor. Hastings chosen ; but it is in the Country, and he hath sent post for it.

Mr. Noy: - The boldest Petition that ever came here. - To examine, how he came to the Knowlege, that Sir Tho. Beaumond threatened to bring an Action against him.

Mr. Sheriff: - That the Indenture of Sir Geor. Return is safe, and hath sent for it. - Confesseth he hath heard from Sir Tho. Beaumond himself, and divers of his Followers, sithence his putting out, that he would bring an Action against him.

Ordered, Mr. Sheriff to attend the House, and not depart, without Licence of the House, till he have brought in the right Indenture; which he hath Time till Friday Morning to bring in; and he to pay all the Fees, both to Clerk and Serjeant, and discharge the Under-sheriff of all his Fees.

Sir Tho. Beaumond to be sent for by the Serjeant, to be here upon Friday Morning.

Mr. Speaker's going out.

Mr. Speaker: - That none ought to go out before him.