House of Commons Journal Volume 1: 27 May 1614

Veneris, 27o Maii

Mr. Speaker.

IT was this Day almost Ten of the Clock, before Mr. Speaker came.

Privilege - Reflections on the House.

Sir Roger Owen reporteth the Proceedings of the Committees Yesterday, concerning the Message; and Reflections delivereth in the Message, in Writing, penned and agreed by the Committees: Which was read.

Sir Geo. Moore: - That the latter Part of the Message in Writing differeth from the Order: The Order being, to forbear, till Answer from the Lords; this, till we be righted of this Wrong.

The same re-committed to the same Committees, presently to go into the Committee-chamber; and to Mr. Attorney-general, Sir Wm. Tate, Sir Ro. Mansfeild, Sir H. Nevill, Sir Geo. Moore, Sir Jo. Savyle, Mr. Glanvyle, and Mr. Hackwyll; - to be added to them.

Mr. Fuller: - That we hear that he hath great Access to the King; and that he is most unworthy of it; therefore to think of a Course to help it. -

That he taketh this papal Authority to himself, that, upon his coming to his Bishoprick, he sendeth out Letters for Benevolence of the Clergy : This done by him in his former Bishoprick, and now in his new. -

That he hath discouraged Ministers, in his Diocese, from preaching twice in One Day; for that the contrary would hinder their Preferment; and hath put down divers Lectures.

Sir Wm. Walter: - Divers dare swear he preacheth not twice a Day. - That dare say, out of the Words of a noble Family, that he the most unthankful, proud, and contesting Prelate, with his Raisers, [that] was ever heard of. - Confirmeth Mr. Fuller's Report for his Benevolence.

Mr. Hopkyns . - That, when he was Bishop of Lichfeild, when he heard the Bell ring to a Sermon, on Sunday in the Afternoon, he would say, if he should go to the Sermon he must sleep. - Confirmeth the Matter for the Benevolence, and that it was very hard to the Clergy.

Sir Edw. Hobby: - Not to prosecute him further thus here, lest it be accounted sufficient Punishment; and then no Man to be beaten twice for One Fault.

Mr. Speaker: - That the Matter in Fact not yet proved against him. - To spare the Person, and proceed with the Matter.

Sir Roger Owen reporteth the Proceeding of this Re-committee.

That a Difference of the Committees, Seven against Seven. - Agreed, the Preface to be left to the Messenger; yet according to this Text: The Body and Peroration to be read : In this the Disagreement.

This read.

Sir Francis Goodwynn moveth an Addition of these Words, " that he knew their Spirits;" and to move the Lords, that if any thing fell from him, besides this, that they will charge him with it.

Sir D. Digges -

Upon the Question, Ordered, The Preface to be left arbitrarily to the Messenger, reserving the Substance set down.

The Form of the Message, presented by the Re-committees, read, and allowed.

The Messenger to be Sir Edw. Hobby.

The Time to be To-morrow.

The Body and Peroration to be read.

Sir Edw. Hobby moveth, whether he shall leave the Message with the Lords, if they require it.

Sir Roger Owen : - No: For Mr. Justice Crooke, the last Parliament, did the like.

Sir Jerome Horsey, and Mr. Fuller, contra. - For Sir Jo. Crooke's Precedent, no Good came of it; ergo, not to be followed.

Sir D. Digges, contra: So Mr. Alford.

Mr. Brooke: - To deliver the Copy of the Words to the Lords: - That we, in this Message, desire them to concur.

Sir W. Heale: - To have a Copy delivered; else the House will be traduced.

Sir H. Poole, accordant; for fear of Delay, and great Mischief, by Delay, in the Country.

Sir Tho. Hobby, contra. - Not to make a new Precedent of leaving a Paper.

Sir Ed. Gyles: - To have the Words left.

Mr. Davys: - That Sir Jo. Crooke read his Message.

That then Sir Jo. Crooke questioned, whether he had the Paper from the Lords, answered, No: Whereupon -

Sir S. Sands, - against the Leaving of the Paper; because in this Case -

Mr. Serjeant Mountague, - against the Reading, - Not to leave any Writing; but to authorize Sir Edw. Hobby to read it so oft (if required) as they may take a Copy thereof, if they will.

Ordered, upon the Question, The Message, in Writing, shall not be delivered to the Lords, though they require it.

Letter from the King.

Mr. Speaker acquainted the House with a Letter received by him this Morning from the King, directed to the Speaker: Which Mr. Speaker read.

Sir George Moore: - That, for Satisfaction of his Majesty, and Discharge of our Duty, looketh back to the past Proceedings of this House. - That the Offence great. That our Proceedings warranted by Gravity. That moved before, that upon any extraordinary Occasion of Business we may treat.

Mr. Duncombe moveth a Committee of the whole House, this Afternoon, to consider of a -

Sir Tho. Hobby: - To have Mr. Speaker present with the Letter.

Sir Jo. Savyle: - To have the Letter left for the Committee.

Mr. Hoskyns: - That fit to answer the Letter, in all Obedience; but that some, not knowing the Parliament Courses, do misinform the King. That it hath always been a Privilege to Parliament, to chuse in what Business we will proceed. That Yesterday an honourable Person -

Mr. Secretary -

Sir H. Croftes: - To give the King a satisfactory Answer, by Committee, this Afternoon.

Sir Jerome Horsey: - We receive the King's Letters with all Duty. -

His Letter, that he is informed; - by whom, knoweth not. - That, if he had been truly informed, his Majesty would not have construe -

Mr. Alford desireth Pardon, if any Word fall from him. - That the Words spoken by Mr. Secretary, as Mr. Hoskyns related them. -

Moveth, no such weighty Business as this, may be deferred till the Rising of the Court. Moveth (in respect of the Order) this Satisfaction -

Sir D. Digges: - That some Misinformation of this Matter now to his Majesty. - No Word or Purpose of Recess; but when we subject to that Tax of Disloyalty, we thought not fit to deal in any Business, till we had discharged ourselves of this Imputation. Mr. Brooke: - To have this, this Afternoon, debated by the Committee of the whole House; and then they to have Power to appoint -

That Pieces of our Speeches, and Actions, are carried too hot to the King. - The Words of Cessation and Recess abandoned, upon Debate. - That, if the King had been informed of the Truth of this, he would never have named either of these Words. - Wisheth these ill Instruments

Sir Edw. Gyles: - Remembereth Mr. Cary's Motion.

Mr. Serjeant Mountague: - That we so far from taking this Authority of Cessation, as we abandoned the Word. -

That the Ground of this Forbearance, our Grief: So this was but to give Precedence to this, till we have discharged ourselves of this.

Sir Roger Owen: - That calling, dissolving, and proroguing Parliaments, in the King's only Power. -

That the Prerogative, contrary to the Law of the Land, void, as Sir J. P. said before both Houses of Parliament.

That he knoweth better the Orders of this Parliament, than, &c. whose Ignorance of the Orders hath caused those Words. -

Moveth a Consideration by the Committee this Afternoon; to consider how the King cometh to these Misinformations.

Sir Tho. Lake; - That the King not misinformed; for saw the Order: - Desired only -

Mr. Bulstrode: - That the King hath been oft misinformed.

Sir W. Chute - That Misinformation certain. That some unwilling with the Calling of the Parliament. - Doubteth, they still cast Bones in: - Not to have the honourable Persons -

Sir S. Sands: - That hath been Thirty Years past in Parliament. - More Bones cast in this Parliament to divert the good Proceedings of the House, than in all the Parliaments he hath known. -

Excepteth against Mr. Speaker's shewing the King, the Book of Orders; yet that his Majesty desired to see it, upon some former Misinformation.

Moveth, every Man may clear himself, upon his Reputation, that he hath not misinformed the King in this. -

A Committee of the whole House, this Afternoon, to consider of an Answer to the King's Letter; and to take into their Consideration all Misinformations made to his Majesty.

Mr. Speaker : - Vae illi, whosoever mis-carrieth these Things. - Cleareth the Counsellors; yet thinketh there are ill Spirits; for delivered this Letter in the End of the Day; thought it not fit to deliver it. -

Never went, but sent for, to the King: Hath gone but twice: Suspected the Cause to be this: Glad to inform his Majesty truly : Took a little Note of the Clerk's Book of this, thinking -

That the King understood of the Word " Forbearance;" and taketh it, his Majesty took them to be both of One Nature. - That his Majesty protested his willing Allowance of all the Privileges of this House.

Mr. Alford: - That he spake in general of Messages, not of this in particular.